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Talk:Gifts (Origins)
This will have to be in table format when we get more info, otherwise it will be incredibly difficult to scroll through.--Selty 07:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC) Sorry guys I am going to have to remove this until release date. --Selty 10:25, November 1, 2009 (UTC) More Gifts Some items I found that havent been added yet: Dog # Beef Bone - Approval unknown. (he's currently at max.) Locations: Ostagar. # Lamb Bone - Approval unknown. Morrigan # Silver Bracelet - Approval +5 Location: Tower of Ishal. # Gold Rope Necklace - Approval +9 Location: Bodahn Feddic. Gave Morrigan a second gold rope necklace and only got +5. Chance that I mis-read the original +9? very possible. Must investigate further. -unknown According to the Dragon Age official message boards, each subsequent gifting of the same item results in a diminished return on approval. Morrigan may be +9 the first, time, but it will be +5 the second time you give her that same gift, and lower each time. Nadante 02:46, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Alistair # Steel Bracers - Approval +5 Location: Redcliff Castle cellar unused gifts # Small Gold Bar # The Rose of Orlais (book) # White Runestone # Water-stained Portrait # Chantry Amulet More as I find them. NinjaWeazel 19:03, November 4, 2009 (UTC) I've actually found all those items at differnt places, only a few of them seem to be placed in static ones, so I suggest we remove the Location bit out, unless we know it's a confirmed drop from a certain place, like the book from Morrigans mother and what not. Nihwtf 01:26, November 5, 2009 (UTC)nihwtf Works for me. half the reason I listed them was to check for this exact situation. I'll leave 'em there for now, if people want to add to the list to see if there's a few common spawn areas. But I wouldn't expect to see them in the final article. NinjaWeazel 02:48, November 5, 2009 (UTC) Yeah. What I'd really like to see out of this gift section is what items give the most approval with who, the few items I've listed launch special 'cutscenes', thus I felt they were the most important ones to add early on. Nihwtf 03:05, November 5, 2009 (UTC)nihwtf Table for gifts New to this wiki thing but wanted to contribute something pretty worthwhile - I finally got my hands on the Prima guide. Here's a formatted table as was suggested earlier. I am not so hot with wiki formatting, I built it in html and then used an editor to convert to wiki format. It's definitely not pretty but should do the job. Should we add a section for descriptions of each gift or make a page per gift? Cynnamin 17:59, November 5, 2009 (UTC) Do we have enough information on these gift items, otherwise it is useless for maintaining separate pages -- Snfonseka :These is about the sum total of it, I believe, with the exception of a description of each item. There are also miscellaneous items which are not keyed to anything in particular which I would like to also include in another table. When I have a more complete list, I will begin creating it. A page per gift does seem rather cumbersome, unless perhaps the gift, as a plot element, triggers a cutscene. Cynnamin 18:48, November 5, 2009 (UTC) I'm not seeing a bonus for the Tribal necklace. It gives the same approval as a standard gift for Morrigan. I've never seen it above +5. Anyone else can confirm/deny that Tribal necklace is special for Morrigan? Even in the table below, it shows that the necklace only gives +5. A123456 03:34, November 14, 2009 (UTC) :: I got that information from the Prima guide. It may be a non-bonus item but it's certainly suited to her personality and history. :) Cynnamin 19:05, November 14, 2009 (UTC) Tables were merged into main article so I have removed them to declutter this page. Cynnamin 19:07, November 14, 2009 (UTC) Can we add the column list a few times into the table? It would make it easier as I wouldn't need to scroll back up to the top to remind myself what each column is if it was repeated every so often. --Stalks 01:57, December 14, 2009 (UTC) ---- Approval mechanics? Hey, just a quick question. Has it been considered that the approval for gifts get lower with more gifts given (not necessarily the same ones)? I just started using some but noticed that it basically gets -1 for every one given to a specific char (down to 1). For example, giving Andraste’s Grace and Blue Satin Shoes to Leliana results in +17 and +9, while the other way round it's +10 and +16. Please check! MyNickIsTakenSoIUseThisOne 01:20, November 8, 2009 (UTC) -- Alexander This contains only the initial approval. -- Snfonseka How Approval Works There are some misconceptions about how approval works here. The basics are thus: # You get a base +5 for any gift given. # Each character has a sort of list of gifts which give an additional +5 bonus. # The total approval has a -1 penalty for every previous gift given. # Having a negative approval cuts the bonus in half. # You always get at least +1 In addition to this each character usually has a couple special gifts which initiate a dialog or a quest that can give more approval. 08:50, November 8, 2009 (UTC) Hm alright. You two surely know more about the gifts than me. I saw the diminishing part noted under non-specific gifts whereas the example I noted works the same with a "plot gift", so I wondered. MyNickIsTakenSoIUseThisOne 09:43, November 8, 2009 (UTC) -- Alexander The above 5 rules matches my experiences. MyNick, your example above is in line with the 5 rules above. The 3rd rule states that each gift will give a cumulative -1 penalty to the next gift. So your first gift gets full value, whatever that is. Then your next gift, no matter the value, will get a -1 from whatever it would have been. Changing the order illustrates that perfectly. The same thing would happen if you gave a normal gift and then a bonus gift. You would see a +5 and then a +9. Switch the order would make +10 and then +4. For most characters, if you talk to them and agree with their views, you can get the approval up pretty high to start and then a couple of bonus/plot gifts later, they should be near the max. A123456 19:23, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Rule 5 actually isn't right. Once you reach 100 with anyone you will stop receiving any approval points for gifts or conversations. Which makes sense! --MiyuEmi 14:08, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Archived information from Zevran This actually belongs with Sten, I think, but was listed under Zevran. Please move into the correct table when confirmed. *'Painting of the Rebel Queen': **Unconfirmed location: Denerim - was either a vendor or out of the chest in the back of the warehouse **Approval: +10 **Also found in Chest within Redcliffe Castle. (confirmed) **Sten also has high Approval Thanks. Cynnamin 19:57, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Sort of a necro on this topic but are the Dalish Deerhide gloves actually in the game? I'm on my 4th playthrough and I have yet to see them. Normal Dalish Gloves in Brecilian Forest, yes. Deerhide? No. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they're somewhere in an origin story? Unless I've completely missed them in all my games.Fritti Tailchaser 12:23, December 19, 2009 (UTC) Fritti, I assume you mean the Dalish gloves that Zevran talks about yes? they aren't called Dalish Deerhide gloves but simple Dalish Gloves - the only difference is that they are a gift mush like Sten's Sword and can be found at the little camp site behind the Grand Oak. Zf6hellion 19:57, December 19, 2009 (UTC) ::No, I'm talking about the Dalish Deerhide Gloves - they're listed as a separate gift on the table. I know about the normal gloves, as I indicated, but the table lists two different pairs of gloves as gifts for Zevran, and my query relates to the second pair that has 'Deerhide' in the name. I perhaps should have specified that they were on the table and should possibly be removed, although I admit to being curious as to whether or not they actually exist (I don't think they do, however).Fritti Tailchaser 01:40, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Well if they do exist I have never seen them which makes me rather curious as well considering I've completed three playthroughs without even a single hinting at these gloves especially because they are considered plot items then Zevran would have told you about it just like every other plot gift in the game, it is at least mentioned or noted about and Zevran only talks about the Dalish Gloves and Antivan Leather Boots. I believe someone just got mixed up with Zevran's explanation of the gloves and the actual gloves themselves. Zf6hellion 08:05, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Tables The tables are kind of stretching too wide. I think item descriptions should be removed, because they don't really add anything useful and are the main reason the tables are so wide. (Item descriptions could be on a separate item lists page?) Just a thought. - 14:03, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Golden Mirror Removed comment to here until this can be verified. "If your lockpick skill is high enough, this item can be found in a chest between Ostagar and Lothering. I believe it is in the Tower, but I would have to confirm that. However it is possible to get this item before you reach Orzammar for free." -Andaryn 17:00, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Spoiler tag misuse Some people apparently have a problem with putting the spoiler tag on the only piece of information on this page which is actually a plot spoiler, and insist on putting it on the entire page instead. You don't find out Loghain is recruitable until very close to the end of the game, unlike everything else on this page. If you have a problem with this, you'd better go edit the Companion page too, because apparently the people who wrote that one all decided to put loghain at the bottom beneath a spoiler tag, EXACTLY like what I did. You'd also better go edit the page on Loghain to put the spoiler tag at the top instead of right above where it says you can recruit him, since apparently spoiler tags belong at the top of the page. In fact, you'd better rewrite basically every single page with a "spoiler" tag on it in the entire wiki. What is the problem with putting Loghain at the bottom? Do you think someone looking for him will scroll 30% of the way through the page, notice everyone's in alphabetical order before scrolling to the bottom, see that "Loghain" is not with the Ls, and then just say "Well, he must not be here, might as well give up" and close their browser? Figuring out who to give gifts to is something a lot of people will want to do, and they'll all be doing it long before they find out Loghain is recruitable. This is the exact situation the spoiler tag is for, and if you just put it at the top, you might as well remove it entirely. If you really disagree with everything I just said, I encourage you to report this page. Idmmao 22:35, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :But what you are totally missing out on is that he's listed in the Table of Contents. Someone coming to the page will see it in the TOC. The spoiler tag should be above the TOC to warn them they might see something they'd rather not know - and since it should be above there, thus Logain should be put into alphabetical discussion. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have him out of order because of the Table of Contents and the need for the spoiler tag above it. Cynnamin 22:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC) ::I never noticed the table of contents. Fixed. Idmmao 22:50, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :::I think you misread what I stated. I feel the spoiler tag should be at the top of the article. Arbitrarily not including an item on a page out of a table of contents does not make any sense. The TOC is put there to make it easier for users to browse the article. If the spoiler tag is at the top of the article, Loghain still should be included in alphabetical order because the spoiler tag warns the reader that there could be plot-ruining elements below it and they should proceed with caution. Cynnamin 22:56, November 11, 2009 (UTC) ::::It is not arbitrary. It has a reason. That reason is because Loghain being recruitable is the one and only spoiler on the page, and it's a pretty significant spoiler, particularly because it happens so late in the game. The table of contents missing a single entry which you can easily find just by scrolling through a short page or using ctrl+f is an insignificant loss in comparison to having a spoiler in bold in the middle of a page about basic companion information with no spoiler notes around it. Having the spoiler note at the top of the article is near worthless, because many readers will assume that, since it's right at the top of the page, someone running the wiki just thinks the entire gift system is a spoiler. Or maybe they'll try to proceed with caution, by just reading the headings until they get to the one they want... whoops, the spoiler is IN the heading. In special, large print. In a special color. Or maybe they'll just look up the character they're interested in in the table of contents. Whoops, the spoiler is IN the table of contents. I don't know how they could avoid it, the way it is now, without just not using the page at all. That is the problem all of my edits have solved. Idmmao 23:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :::::I've given it a non-spoiler heading, though honestly I don't see why a heading matters so much.Idmmao 23:50, November 11, 2009 (UTC) As people have different ideas on what could be considered a spoiler (personally I think something like finding Duncan's shield is a spoiler)I prefer we take a cautious approach to spoilers. If we place a warning at the top of the gifts we remove the risk of spoiling anyone. Loleil 09:30, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :I do not understand how removing the spoiler tag from Loghain is being MORE cautious. I explained above how putting a spoiler note on the entire page is much less useful than putting it on the one piece of information on the page that is a major end game plot spoiler. It's not like Duncan comes back from the dead to give you his shield, after all, but if you really think that's in the same class as Loghain, then why don't you figure out a way to put a spoiler tag on that specifically as well, instead of removing the one on Loghain? And in just the matter of hours since I made these changes, someone has complained that it wasn't ENOUGH, and you want to REDUCE the amount of protection around Loghain? I'm making one more change, then I'm done. I'm frankly disappointed in how this whole thing has played out. I'm certain that guy is not the first and far from the last who will have his game experience spoiled by the stubbornness of the people editing this wiki, given how many edits and how much arguing it took me just to get the second biggest spoiler in the game taken out of the main body of this page. Idmmao 13:31, November 12, 2009 (UTC) This page spoiled the game Am only ~25-30% through the game. Came looking to see who would like certain gifts like the demon-head amulet, and am leaving knowing that Loghain joins the party. Would never have seen that coming, and am very disappointed to have a major plot point spoiled in that way. Putting "The Last Companion" in the header and table of contents was a wonderful idea. If only it didn't say "Loghain" on the line immediately below that. The small "spoiler" warning, which I saw only after reading the word "Loghain" did not help. It's the same background color as the page art, and is only placed right next to the spoiler. By the time you see the warning, you've also seen the spoiler. 03:28, November 12, 2009 (UTC) Arkhan Shale's gifts Do I need to recover Shale's memories before giving gifts? Currently when giving gifts Shale's approval only goes up +1 per remarkable gemstone. CyberSkull 04:30, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::In giving the Remarkable Gemstone to Shale, I earned +10 approval, and an "Ooh, shiney..." from Shale. -anon I have not yet recovered Shale's memories and each remarkable gemstone gives him a moderate amount of approval (5-7, I can't quite remember). Sheltim 15:06, November 12, 2009 (UTC) Oops I was doing some updates to the chart, and I added in Loghain as a column, only based on what I'd read at another site. I didn't even realize who it was talking about, I drew a complete mental blank on the name - you know, sounded familiar, but. Oops. Sorry. One edit I made was taking "Wine" off of the "These are generic items with no special bonus for anyone" list, seeing as it can give +10 approval with Wynne. It is a "love" gift with her. Someone put it back on the list, though. Oh well. Oh, and the "there are a bunch of misconceptions, here's the truth: any item gives +5 approval" should probably be removed, seeing as it's, well, a complete misconception. :Wine is definetely not generic, Wynne gets +10. -- 12:32, November 15, 2009 (UTC) ::Well for me generic means just that it is not a special gift bought/found at one given place, instead it can be randomly found at some vendors.Kashper Tiara gift Stole a Tiara from Fayd the Apprentice in the Market in Denerim. So far it looks like a +5 gift for Alistair, Leliana, and Morrigan; haven't really gotten far enough to test it on others. (Somehow I don't think Stubbs the Dog will care.) Chart is just wrong The chart at the bottom of the page is just flat-out wrong. It was clearly created initially by someone who didn't realize that there were declining returns on gifts - no gifts in the game will ever give "+1 to +2" if it's the very first gift you give someone, based on my knowledge of the mechanics. But I don't want to just delete the table entirely, because it's a useful lookup. Someone should convert it to being a list of all gifts with just four symbols used: One each for "Accept", "Refuse", "Bonus", and "Plot". I'll do it myself eventually if no one gets to it first, but it might take me a while to get to it. Bobson 16:24, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :Ok, I did get around to starting it myself. Check out User:WoWWiki-Bobson/Gift_Chart. Feel free to add more information into it or comment on it. If no one objects, I'll replace the chart that's currently here Wednesday night. --06:04, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :: Much better! Still some things that are not accurate: :: * I believe (still need to confirm) that even "special gifts" have diminishing returns that decline past +6. :: * No point in listing the 'normal' gifts -- they all give a base of +5 (and decline...) for *all* characters. :: ** It's more important to just identify the 'normal' vs 'special' gifts. :: I'm also sort of wondering if we really need it? The tables above it are far more worthwhile, especially since every special gift is only special for one person. So a large "gift vs character" table is mostly filed with empty cells... hence an indication it shouldn't be one large table. :: I suggest we just get rid of the lookup table completely. It's not needed. -- 20:00, November 16, 2009 (UTC) ::: I'm of 2 minds about it. It's not strictly necessary in that the special gifts can be looked up with a Control+F, but it is nice to have an alphabetical list with normal gifts included some place just for ease of use. Perhaps a big table is the wrong format but it could just be a 2 column table with "Gift name" and then either "Normal" or "character name" with maybe an extra "(plot)" added if it starts dialog. I'm sure there are a few errors in which gifts are normal and which are special since they came straight from that Prima Guide unedited. A123456 21:54, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :::: Yeah, either way you have to use Ctrl-F since the list is so big. But since my removal of the "Lookup" table was almost instantly reverted I can only assume that people still use that lookup table, no matter how inaccurate it currently is. So clearly there are some very passionate fans of that table ;-). I guess we should keep it and replace it with Bobson's ASAP... the longer we wait the more changes we're going to undo. -- 22:52, November 16, 2009 (UTC) ::::: I went ahead and updated it with Bobson's gift chart. It was a very nice looking table (great job btw!), and I felt that it just couldn't wait since people were still updating this Lookup table. -- 23:44, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :::::: Looks good to me. Thanks for filling in the rest of the data! :) Seeing it filled, I'm not thrilled with my choices for the symbols, but I'm not sure what would be better. --Bobson 04:31, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::::: Yeah, if you gave the various symbols of Andraste to others then I feel your pain. Though why you would do so when Leliana is so obviously into Andraste is beyond me, hehe :-P -- 05:20, November 17, 2009 (UTC) I=Failure Thought I would be a samaritan and edit some false Gift info, I may have broken it instead... I'll leave it to the pro's in future...But Dalish Gloves trigger dialogue with Zevran. Jamhammer 04:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :I fixed it, but I don't have them yet to test whether or not other characters will accept them, so I left it at "accept" for now. If someone can test and confirm that (as is most likely) no one else will take them, that'd be appriciated. --Bobson 04:32, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :: I suggest we err on the side of it following the pattern for everything else, and correct it later if it happens to be the one gift in the game that breaks the pattern. I'll make the change. -- 05:23, November 17, 2009 (UTC) As far as I'm aware they are specific to Zevran, so I think that's a safe assumption to make. Jamhammer 04:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC) I can confirm for a fact that no one else will take the gloves. I initially tried to give them to everyone and no one would take them but Zevran. --MiyuEmi 16:41, November 18, 2009 (UTC) New color lookup chart The chart is very pretty, but for those of us who are colorblind, would someone who is more adept than I consider changing the colors so that there is no red/green and no green/yellow conflicts? I am yellow/green colorblind, which makes the hearts very difficult to pick out, and many others are red/green. The chart is really very handy, and it is obvious that someone spent a great deal of time on it, but it is very difficult for me to read because of my condition. --Jbloodthorn 04:36, November 17, 2009 (UTC) : Sure. Are you familiar with the color codes (FF0000 is red, 00FF00 is blue, etc...)? The reason I ask is because I think we should use a variation of street lights. Red is bad, green is good, yellow is okay. But from what I understand the street lights are actually "slightly off-color red", and "slightly off-color green", so that colorblind people can see them better. What off-color shade is the red, yellow, and green? If you can tell me for example that "red should be slightly off-color blue", then I should be able to get correct color codes. -- 05:20, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :Well, that's one of the two reasons why I did it as templates (the other being easier than typing span all the time). It's very easy to change across the entire grid. I'd say to replace the hash marks with something small - possibly a period. I don't know what to do with the other symbols, though. Ideally, the shapes will be distinct enough to convey meaning to those for whom the colors aren't helpful, but I don't know enough to know if that would be enough. --Bobson 05:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::I'm not even sure if this is the correct way to reply, I didn't see a Reply button anywhere, though. Do you really want me poking around with something when I have no idea how to even use this discussion page? I looked, but I have no idea where to find the templates to tinker with the color codes.--Jbloodthorn 08:25, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::I figured it out! I changed the symbol for Accept, and muted the color slightly to make it easier for my fellow Protans to read. If I changed too much, please let me know! --Jbloodthorn 09:33, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::: Wow, very impressive! If you didn't know about color codes before, then you're certainly a quick learner! And nice job, btw. -- 16:59, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Wine Okay, the changes on Wine are getting a little out of hand. I've given Wine to Morrigan and received +8. Yet others are sure that they have never got over +5, and that instead it's Wynne who got more than +5. I can only guess that either: * There's difference between PC vs XBox vs PS3 versions? * People don't realize that even "special" gifts can go below +5, with enough gifts. So let's discuss this. If you've made an edit to Wine, can you explain in more detail why you feel that Morrigan or Wynne does not get more than +5 from the gift. Please mention approximately how many previous gifts you've given that character, and on what game system. For the record, I gave Wine to Morrigan when I hadn't already given her many gifts, and I'm using the PC version of the game. -- 17:07, November 17, 2009 (UTC) : It's probably another console vs. PC difference then. I'm on PC version and I'm 100% sure Wynne gets the bonus and Morrigan doesn't. This is also having just finished the Circle tower as the first treaty (and siding with the mages of course) and doing nothing else. As an example, Wynne got +9 and +8 after 2 wine while Morrigan got +3 and +2 with 2 wine. Reload the game and Morrigan got +3 and +2 with 2 non-special gifts, like bones. A123456 18:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :: What A123456 describes matches what I experienced: PC version, Redcliff first, wine to M only yielded +3 (without any extensive gifting prior). Could well be a PC vs. XBox version mismatch issue, or possibly a patch issue? I heard a litany of horror stories about the patch and decided against it until things calmed down, perhaps it was "adjusted". -- 19:48, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::: I'll add my voice to the body of evidence suggesting Morrigan does not receive more than +5. I performed the test on a new game, on the PC. No other gifts had been given (to anyone!). I gave Morrigan the wine and got +5, which is what I would expect to see. I don't have Wynne yet in this game but will repeat the test and update here once I do. Note though that the person claiming Morrigan recieves more than +5 claims to have found this on the PC, yet everyone else posting says she does not and they are also on the PC. Nobody using the XBox version has posted yet as far as I can tell? Another possibility to consider; I know I have found multiple instances of Wine in previous playthroughs. Could they in fact be different items, despite having identical tooltips? --Kal 19:58, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::: There's definitely multiple wine in the game. I've only noted 2 thus far, though. To do that previous test, I had loaded a game but I forget where I picked up the first wine. The 2nd wine, as noted, was from the Spoiled Princess in Calenhad so if you haven't already bought it from there, one can be found there for testing. When I picked up the 2nd wine, it stacked on top of the first wine so this suggests that at least those 2 early copies of the wine are the same. Also, the above testing was done with patch 1.01. A123456 20:06, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::: I could have sworn I got +8, but with the evidence mounting against me I'm going to reload an older save and double-check. Maybe it's different wine bottles as well? Also, I do *not* have the patch... I'm still using v1.0. -- 20:09, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::::: To update, as promised. PC version, same game as before, no other gifts given. Wynne receives +10 for the Wine as soon as she joins the party in the Circle Tower. I'm patched though (Steam) so that could well be the difference here - either that or Skye was sampling the wine before testing before ;) --Kal 20:25, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::::: Hehe... I must have been ;-). I tried to find a save file that had Wine in my inventory, but I can't find one. Since no one else has piped up, and since it's only (flawed) recollection versus the many hard facts that have been stated, I went ahead and removed the Wine from Morrigan. Thx everyone! -- 02:13, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Edit on gifts for Wynne I added that you can find Wine in a crate in Lothering also. Steel Bracers In the chart they are shown as generic gifts. Should they also be added to the list of generic gifts earlier in the page? : Yes. It will be a little difficult to keep all these tables in-sync with each other. -- 16:32, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Wilhelm's Special Brew The lookup table is awesome, but Wilhelm's Special Brew really isn't the dorf's? I'm surprised. I... also haven't gotten around to picking him up yet. --DarkJeff 23:10, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Why isn't Wilhelm's Special Berw in Gifts for Oghren table? It works just like any other gift from that list... Tsumetai Ryujin 16:00, December 2, 2009 (UTC) :If he gets the +5 bonus from it, then please add it. I'll do it myself once I collect him, otherwise. --Bobson 13:02, December 3, 2009 (UTC) Does shale have different gift mechanics? There's various comments in the article about Shale reacting differently to gifts than everyone else - that he can be made to not want his special items, that his approval rating drops quicker than everyone else, and that he likes Dog's gifts more than anyone else. I really doubt all three of these claims, but I'm not yet in a position to test them. Can someone else verify or disprove them? --Bobson 05:18, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :I tested all of them, found them to be false, and am removing them from the page. As usual, if anyone disagrees, correct it :) --Bobson 08:13, November 22, 2009 (UTC)